Are All Musicians Lazy? (w/ Jeff With Salad and Ruune)

Zach Kay (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Bands on Banding. I'm here with Jeff With Salad and Ruune How about you both introduce yourselves?

Jeff With Salad (00:07)
I'm Jeff from the band Friends with Salad. I also play in the band Edd Party and Colectivo Caskada in Portland.

Ruune (00:16)
Hi, I am Ruune I am Bentabia I am Gregory James McKillop. I am Super Drum Boy. And I play in all of those bands and I have no bandmates.

Zach Kay (00:28)
And my name's Zach Kay. I'm your host here today and every day. There's no other host on this show. But between the two of you, we have like six bands or six or seven music projects. I've got one. So I don't feel like I'm carrying my weight. And it's funny, Jeff, to have seen you in particular pick up all these projects, because I remember a time not too long ago.

Jeff With Salad (00:41)
Hahaha

Zach Kay (00:52)
when we were sitting in downtown Milwaukie, Oregon, and talking about how, and I think you brought this up even, you're like, I don't understand these people who play in like five bands, how do they have the time? And now you're in like four bands.

Jeff With Salad (01:04)
Yeah, I know, I know. told, yeah, but you know, you just don't know until it happens and then you're, then it's your reality.

Zach Kay (01:14)
How has it been?

Jeff With Salad (01:15)
It's been good. love all the... I mean, yeah, in addition to the three bands that I play in in Portland, I also have multiple recording projects and collaboration things. And it's certainly been wonderful and super fun. And also, it is a lot. It's a lot to keep track of and keep moving. I am finding it difficult. But I'm gonna try to keep going.

because it's all really fun.

Zach Kay (01:41)
Yeah, and Ruune, and I imagine it's perhaps easier to keep track of when they're all your own solo projects.

Ruune (01:47)
Yeah, I can just kind of do whatever I want whenever I want and that's literally the best thing that a musician can have in life is agency. But I feel like Jeff, actually am very, I feel like one of the reasons Jeff you are in so many things working with so many people is because you like.

Jeff With Salad (01:50)
Ha

Ruune (02:10)
value it seems like I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you value community so much and Like that kind of like you have such an enthusiasm around Music and other people playing music that it makes sense that you would kind of just get sucked in To like playing with a bunch of people and that's actually something that there's something you said Maybe a year or two ago

Jeff With Salad (02:16)
Mmm.

Ruune (02:36)
to me that I've been trying to let like inform my life ⁓ because you talked about one time you were like, I am living my dream because I live in a city with a music scene and I can play a show whenever I want and I can go to shows and my friends will be there and I just get to play a lot of really cool music. And I think it's so, it's so easy to get caught up in.

Jeff With Salad (02:40)
Wow.

Ruune (03:01)
sort of the capitalistic, like, success of metrics in relation to like playing music. And like, I have like a pretty long personal journey with like, working on that within myself. But I just, I just remember that you, you said that stuff to me and I was just like, like Jeff is living the best life that you can live as a musician of just sort of like having so much joy.

in and like gratefulness for like the actual important parts of playing in bands. So based on that I think it's like completely not a surprise to me that like you play with so many different people because like you love people and like you just end up playing with them.

Jeff With Salad (03:47)
My license plate in New Jersey when I was living there ended in JLP and one day I was walking my grandma and I would go out for meals a lot, like the diner, and we were walking back to the car and she looks at my license plate and she goes, hey, JLP, Jeff loves people. It was really cute and look at that, just, and it's true.

Zach Kay (04:08)
That's amazing.

Ruune (04:10)
It's true.

Jeff With Salad (04:12)
It was plastered on my car.

Zach Kay (04:15)
So with that in mind, who is your favorite bandmate?

Ruune (04:18)
The real the real salt

Zach Kay (04:18)
No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Don't answer that.

Jeff With Salad (04:22)
I'm curious

to ruin as to who your favorite bandmate is.

Zach Kay (04:25)
Ha ha!

Ruune (04:27)
⁓ my favorite bandmate, it's me.

Zach Kay (04:31)
Are you your own bandmate? Is that? ⁓

Ruune (04:33)
Well, I have no band.

guess, yeah, I guess The Void.

Zach Kay (04:39)
Hmm.

Well, you know who doesn't show up late to rehearsal is the void.

Ruune (04:43)
But I show up late. But yeah, it is true though, because it is interesting because I am in this situation where I'm doing so much work all by myself. But it's easier to stay motivated when you have someone else depending on you. Or it's easier to engage with your own creativity when you're engaging with someone else's creativity. So I often...

Jeff With Salad (04:44)
Not often. Not often.

Ruune (05:05)
find myself creating a lot of like mental gymnastics to create additional, like not necessarily all the names I just listed, but create additional like little spirits that I can like collaborate with in different ways in order to like get the music made and like get the shows booked and get things happening. Because it's way easier to advocate for someone else than it is for yourself. That's just like.

If you're sticking up for someone else, then it's easy to be like, yeah. But when it's just you, you're like, I'm fine. I'm chill.

Jeff With Salad (05:36)
That's interesting and speaking of mental gymnastics, if I may, the way that you just described that makes me feel like every one of your projects is almost a duo. And I think you do have bandmates because it's almost like there is The Void, which is maybe who we're speaking to now. then there's, and then there's, and then there's Bentabia, there's Bentabia and there's Ruune and there's Gregory and there's, and The Void interacts with each of them. And so maybe you do have a favorite bandmate. What is it like interacting with each of those?

Ruune (06:03)
They all, I don't know that I have a favorite bandmate, but they all have different uses. Like I've been having fun on my newsletters, signing off and being like, okay, Ruune is the founder and then Gregory McKillop is the outreach coordinator and ⁓ Bentabia is like the...

Jeff With Salad (06:03)
⁓

Hahaha!

Zach Kay (06:22)
Ha ha ha

ha

Ruune (06:27)
like HR specialist or like something like that. ⁓ But it is true in that like I'm working on some material right now that like is written by Bentabia but produced by Ruune. And like all of my shows are booked by Gregory even if Gregory doesn't like, cause Gregory, the part of me that like writes the Gregory songs is also the part of me that like has the energy to book shows.

Jeff With Salad (06:30)
Yeah, yeah.

I didn't know that yet.

Zach Kay (06:40)
That's interesting.

Ruune (06:57)
And the part of me that is Ruune is the part of me that engages with mixing and sound textures and producing. And the part of me that is Bentabia is a part of me that deals in metaphor and spirituality and stuff like that. So they all kind of have their different parts that they play in the collective. Yeah.

Jeff With Salad (06:57)
Wow.

So Greg, really, Gregory is the booking agent and Ruune is the producer. Yeah, beyond even like, is that what you said already? When you said, ⁓ no, you sign off as, yeah, that's what you said already. Yeah, okay.

Ruune (07:30)
Yeah.

I

I try, like there's no good way to sign off and usually I just don't. But sometimes I have fun with it in like one off ways because it's just all Dungeons and Dragons.

Zach Kay (07:44)
Yeah, that's interesting. And I've definitely heard of people doing that before where like they have a stage name, that's their artist name, and then they use the most like, and I am not saying this about you, but they use the most generic white guy name to do all their business emails from. ⁓ Because that's, you know, that's how people interface with business. And especially back then, that was more in the 90s.

Ruune (07:44)
That's just all it is.

Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (08:07)
It's interesting that you use those different personas or parts of yourself to help motivate your solo projects. That's something that I've always struggled with when I've tried to even just write and record music alone is I'm not really motivated to do it myself, but certainly with combobox when other people are writing songs that that's motivating for me because I really like their songwriting and I believe in those songs or with

some of the more label-oriented stuff I've been doing lately, that's motivating, because I want to support people's art and push it as hard as it can and get it to the audience that I feel it deserves in a way that is difficult for me to access for my own creative work.

Ruune (08:50)
Yeah, it's, feel like working with someone else on music is like, you're trying to find, like when you're collaborating, you're trying to find the thing that you really like in them. Like you are, it's like kind of an archeology or an excavation of creativity to get the thing out that you really like and then shape it together into like something that you can show the world. And I...

Zach Kay (09:04)
Yeah.

Ruune (09:15)
A lot of times, probably last year when I was really starting to get into this kind of songwriting, kind of, I really was trying to put together like a of like a radio that I could tune to different stations, like set up with a loop pedal and like trying to find the right radio signals and then put it into a loop pedal to create beats and stuff. I, cause I really wanted that feeling of like,

searching in outer space for like extraterrestrial life in songwriting and then eventually I realized I could just try to do that feeling without having to put together like an entire Star Trek space station to like make it happen I could just try to like find other writing styles or prompts or like whatever and so that's really like kind of the

the mentality that I have now when I'm songwriting and trying to operate with the parts of myself in me as my bandmates is I'm trying to like tune the radio until I find the song that I wanna sing.

Zach Kay (10:19)
Yeah, that's really interesting. I liked what you were saying about how collaborating with someone is finding the parts of them that you like. And I feel like in a band, and Jeff, I'm curious if this is your experience as well, but in a band that becomes the band sound, right, which is separate from any of the members or and not necessarily greater than, but it's just different. It is a different sound. And certainly in the

early days of combobox was writing a song that was a Zach song and combobox was the band I was in. So I'd bring it here and we'd play it and we don't play any of those songs anymore because we've now developed a sound for the band. And when I sit down to write a combobox song, I am writing a combobox song and not a Zach song.

Jeff With Salad (11:01)
That's interesting. I've always been in all until now all the bands that I've been in, I've been the primary songwriter, not the only songwriter, but the primary songwriter writing most of the songs. And and yeah, I think I just wrote whatever. I don't think I was writing. I don't think I was writing to the band.

because I didn't have multiple bands. This is the first time I've been in multiple bands at the same time as well, I think. so, however, I had that experience recently because I joined Edd Party. Edd Party, I love Edd Party. I'm always telling Ruune how much I love Edd Party. I still feel like more of a fan than a member of the band, honestly. Dylan, who writes, is the primary songwriter for Edd Party, I love his style and it's very like...

in my mind, like old school, like punk rock, like straight ahead punk rock. And we have started to branch out and other members of Edd Party have started to write Edd Party songs. And the first one that I wrote, I was trying to write an Edd Party song. And I was trying to like pull things that I know, what would Dylan do here and do that. But do it.

you know, from my perspective or in my way. And it was really fun. And it's been cool to work on new songs. Catherine in Edd Party is also writing some songs and it's been cool to figure out. And I wrote a song recently that I didn't have anything in mind for and I was thinking maybe it could be a Friends with Salad song. And I was like, actually, I think this could maybe be an Edd Party song. So I have started thinking that way.

Zach Kay (12:33)
Cool. That's very cool. You mentioned Friend with Salad, which is, I don't know if, I hesitate to call it your primary project, but it is the one that you've been playing with the longest out of all of these projects. I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the three of us are all playing a show together. combobox, Friend with Salad, and Ruune as Super Drum Boy at Misdemeanor Meadows December 27th. It's the farewell show to that space. And I'd love to kind of talk a little bit about

what that space has meant to us.

Jeff With Salad (13:02)
Yeah, I love Misdemeanor Meadows. Misdemeanor Meadows, it has a great vibe. To me, it's a great, yeah, it just has everything going for it. They take really good care of the bands and they, the space, I just like the space. like the feel.

And I like the way that the stage area is small,

It feels just big enough for like a band our size that we can get the people that we get to come out to a show and it feels packed. And you can get even more people in there. yeah, I feel like it has a lot of flexibility. And Misdemeanor Meadows is the only venue that, at first it was the only venue that Friends with Salad had played twice. We played a lot of shows and for the first year we had played.

Almost every single show at a different venue except Misdemeanor Meadows, we had played twice. And then we eventually played Misdemeanor Meadows three times, maybe four, maybe five at this point. Like we've played a lot. And it's just because we really like it. I mean, we like other venues as well, but we just really feel a strong connection to Misdemeanor Meadows. And I realized this for the first time this week because...

I'm not sure if we're gonna play a new song at Misdemeanor Meadows on the 27th. It's a possibility, but unlikely. Misdemeanor Meadows is the only place that we've debuted new songs after our first show. So we played our first show at Beer Bunker, and then we have never debuted an original song outside of Misdemeanor Meadows.

Zach Kay (14:11)
We will.

That's remarkable.

Ruune (14:27)
That is very, very cool.

Jeff With Salad (14:28)
Hahaha!

Zach Kay (14:29)
That is cool.

Jeff With Salad (14:30)
Yeah, Ruune, you laughed when Zach proposed that we talk about our feelings about Venue.

Ruune (14:35)
yeah.

So it's a very funny story where like me and Jeff talk a lot about booking and about like our general schedules and like what we're up to. ⁓ And like he had been talking about booking this show because of like another show that we won't talk about that like.

Zach Kay (14:50)
Yeah.

Ruune (14:59)
Maybe it was gonna happen, maybe it wasn't, like, et cetera, whatever. Nothing matters. ⁓

Jeff With Salad (15:03)
I've already, I

actually have no idea what you're talking about. I blocked it out of my mind, whatever it was.

Ruune (15:08)
That's

great. That's great. You were maybe gonna be on a bigger show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were maybe gonna be on a bigger show and then it didn't work out and I was like, wouldn't it be more meaningful for you to play at Misdemeanor Meadows anyways? And because like that's your favorite place. Cause I know that Jeff loves that venue so much. And that gives me a big appreciation to the venue because I...

Jeff With Salad (15:12)
⁓ yes, that's right, yeah.

Zach Kay (15:23)
That's so funny.

Ruune (15:35)
I have appreciation and respect for any venue that makes my friends feel good because like so many venues don't. And, but we were talking and I was like, you know, if you're gonna end up booking the show and like, it wouldn't be a big hassle to just like have Super Drum Boy open, then like that could be fun

Zach Kay (15:42)
Yeah.

Ruune (15:55)
I know Jeff thinks Super Drum Boy is fun and like I really like Friends with Salad and like we haven't gotten to play together that much because all my other projects are vastly different styles of music. Even though I've been to tons of Friends with Salad shows but we just haven't played together that much. And Super Drum Boy is a fairly new resurgence for me

and then when I found and he was like, yeah, that'd be great. but when I found out it was the last misdemeanor meadow show, I kind of tried to talk Jeff out of having me on the bill a little bit because I don't think I just like, I think it's a big deal to have a last show at a venue. And that's kind of like a last show at a venue is kind of for like the like OG heroes who have like,

Zach Kay (16:28)
no.

Yeah.

Ruune (16:42)
supported that venue a bunch and like brought a bunch of people and sang the praises and that's not me like I I've been to one misdemeanor meadow shows and that was like the combobox CD release ⁓ and I don't like bars that much like that just that just that like it's Yeah, so I was just kind of like I don't know if I should like I don't know if I deserve to kind of thing because I'm not like I don't have this like

Zach Kay (16:55)
Yeah.

Ruune (17:11)
love for this venue but I do have a lot of respect for the venue because Jeff is a really wonderful friend of mine I would consider Jeff I would consider you one of like my best friends in the city at this point and ⁓ and I just like all of us are like swirling around in this pool of like trying to figure out how to

Jeff With Salad (17:27)
same.

Ruune (17:38)
best express ourselves on stage with limited amount of social currency. And we're not necessarily getting into the cool venues or getting into the big venues or whatever. I've always, especially when I used to play in New Here, we weren't allowed to play the big venues for the most part either, but I would always rather play.

like a venue that has a little bit less like industry pull that you can just cram people in and have a really good time versus playing like kind of a more high stakes quote unquote bigger venue that has like a big overhead and there's a lot of pressure to like bring a lot of people to like prove that you belong there and the tickets are like.

15 to $20 and so So and like the booking agents like don't give a shit about you and yeah so I just I'm always like even if a venue isn't like I wouldn't play Misdemeanor Meadows with like my solo music for the most part because I just don't want to play in a bar like I want to play in places where people are like focused and listening to me.

But that's the great thing about bringing Super Drum Boy back is that I can play on these like fun punk shows with my friends at venues that have treated them so well. even though I don't have like a big like spiritual connection to Misdemeanor Meadows as like one of my favorite venues, I have a lot of respect for them just for treating one of my best friends really.

Zach Kay (19:12)
Yeah. I think you touched on a lot there about venues in general and the state of venues, maybe specifically in Portland, but maybe more broadly these days. But certainly Misdemeanor Meadows to me has always just felt like a community spot more than a business in a lot of ways. Certainly it's not like you're not getting the pressure of

Jeff With Salad (19:12)
So sweet.

Zach Kay (19:35)
we gotta pack as many people in as we can and prove that we belong there. Which isn't to say that bringing people out isn't important and certainly the business is closing. there's a level of you still have to make money because you are a business in current economic system. But it often has felt more community first as opposed to using the bands as

sort of a commodity to bring in currency.

Jeff With Salad (20:04)
I think that they would probably agree with you 100 % and they would be the first to say that, and that's why it's not sustainable. it's not, you know, it's, is what's best for the community best for capitalism? Yeah, no, it's not, necessarily.

Zach Kay (20:26)
Yeah.

Well, and it's just a tough time to be a venue in general, right? Like, they're not the only one closing in Portland at the end of the year. Lollipop Shoppe just closed down. Turn! Turn! Turn! is closing down at the end of the year. And I haven't played either of those rooms, but...

A part of that, I'm sure, is related to alcohol sales and how down that is in general over the post-COVID period. But also, it's just, well, it's a tough time to try and be a business at all, especially one that is about art.

Jeff With Salad (20:59)
You know, it's also interesting that you're, the alcohol thing, it's like, I feel sad that Misdemeanor Meadows is closing, but I think it's cool that alcohol consumption is down, or I don't know if it's just alcohol, I don't know if people are just drinking at home now, but if alcohol consumption is down, that's great in my opinion, so.

Ruune (21:19)
...

Zach Kay (21:19)
Yeah, and certainly venues are going to have to figure out a way to sustain their business without relying on alcohol sales. And that's just that is just a reality of it wherever they are. But we've also seen in this town, all ages venues closed down for presumably similar reasons because they couldn't actually bring in enough revenue. ⁓ Go ahead, hit me. Do it.

Ruune (21:40)
I'm gonna push back on that a little bit. ⁓ Cause people

always talk about how there are no all ages venues in Portland. And I think that what people are actually saying is that there's no like, there's not a lot of huge all ages venues in Portland. But there are actually lots of places where you can fit in like 50 to 100 people in a room that are all ages. Just like.

they're either not cool or they're not big enough or like whatever. like people aren't talking about them a bunch, but like you could play at specs Records You could play at the waypost. You could play at too many records.

Jeff With Salad (22:16)
Mmm, that,

waypost is, last time, I don't know, I don't know if it has changed, but waypost is not going too hard on All-Ages shows, I think.

Zach Kay (22:25)
I didn't know they had all-ages shows at all there.

Ruune (22:27)
Yeah,

they're not like advertising that they can do it, but they will say yes. And that's like, I don't know, for me that's part of the fun. Like part of the fun is getting people to say yes. Or not even getting people to say yes, but just like asking people and then they say yes usually. like, there's the high limit room, there's the, what's the, the heights.

over in foster. I don't know, there's like, made a little list of them and there's at least like 15 all ages venues that you can fit 50 to 100 people into that have very low cost for rental, if any. And like that compared to when I was in high school, we had one. So like, like I'm not saying that there shouldn't be more all ages venues, but I just feel like.

Jeff With Salad (23:11)
you

Ruune (23:16)
One of the problems is a lack of education about the venues that exist in town and maybe a little bit of a lack of like willingness to contribute to like making them a part of the scene.

Zach Kay (23:30)
That's interesting, and I want to dig into that. But also, do you have that list? Is there a link? I would love to include it in the show notes.

Ruune (23:39)
I will... I'll try to make it into a presentable thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Jeff With Salad (23:42)
Yeah.

Zach Kay (23:42)
Okay, yeah, and even if you just email it to me, I can put it on an internet somewhere. Because

I think that's an important resource. Like, I didn't know a lot of those places had all-ages shows. ⁓ So you're definitely right that there's a lack of education. But what do you mean when you say a willingness to make them a part of the scene?

Ruune (23:51)
Yeah.

Like, like people I find because I have like I have historically been in bands that can't get shows.

which I know is a lot of bands, but it's not every band. And because of that, I have historically booked at places that nobody else wants to play at. And like when, or thinks to play at, like I, I to toot my own horn. Like when I booked the first friends with salad show at beer bunker, nobody, nobody wanted to play beer bunk.

Jeff With Salad (24:19)
or thinks to play it.

Ruune (24:32)
Like, it was just, it's just this bar in Montevilla and like they had some shows there but it was mostly kind of like, like once a year they would have like Old Dude Americana or something. And the first show I ever booked there was the first New Here show that ever happened. And we played there because we couldn't get booked anywhere else. Like no one would let us play.

and I was like really sad about it and then I was just sitting in the back of beer bunker looking around on their patio and I was like a show could happen here and when I asked them they instantly said yes and then gave me every Sunday for the next two summers and and and it's just like people don't think to play there or don't want to play there because it's not like swan dive or it's not like

Zach Kay (25:16)
Wow.

Ruune (25:27)
lollipop shoppe or it's not Mississippi studios, but you can turn any space into like a good space for a show and often spaces like that won't charge you an overhead. Like they won't like you maybe have to do a little bit extra work to get like a sound system there or something, but like half the time you play in these venues and the sound people don't care anyways. So.

It's the same thing with, you know, The Heights is a really, is like a 150 capacity room in the Foster neighborhood. And it's an all-ages space. And not just an all-ages space, but an all-ages space that can have all-ages shows until like 10 or 11 o'clock. And it's been around for a while, and like, there's not a lot of bands that are playing there.

And it might be because it's kind of like out there, but like Misdemeanor Meadows is like right down the street. So, ⁓ I don't know. I just think that like, I think that people kind of get stuck in like punk traditions or like what's a place that I can go to where like, it will make me look cool to play there because other bands play there. and that has never worked for me. And like every band I've ever been in, I've had to like gather up the loser bands.

Zach Kay (26:20)
down.

sure.

Ruune (26:44)
in the loser venue and then like make something happen. And that's always been way more fulfilling to me than just like any of the other stuff.

Zach Kay (26:53)
Yeah, I mean, also you learn about venues by seeing where people are playing, right? so there's like, it becomes a recursive cycle there.

Ruune (26:57)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Kay (27:02)
Jeff, what do

you think?

Jeff With Salad (27:03)
Yeah, I think that, I don't know, think booking shows is hard, that's what I've learned, is hard work. Whether you're doing it at a brand new space or whether you're doing it at an existing space, working with other people has its challenges and it's a lot of work.

Zach Kay (27:11)
Write that one down.

Ruune (27:12)
No

Jeff With Salad (27:26)
And so I think, I don't, cause I don't want to say that people are lazy cause I don't think, I don't think that's necessarily the point that I'm trying to make, but I think that it is a lot of, it is really genuinely exhausting to book a show. And so I think it's, I think people are more likely to be like, I can't get booked at this venue, which is a venue that I know about. There's nowhere to play, you know, or, you know.

Zach Kay (27:51)
Yeah

Jeff With Salad (27:51)
⁓

And it's just because they, it's not because they, I don't know, there could be folks who, who am I to say, but there could be folks who sincerely only want to play at these venues, but they also just might not be aware until they listen to this podcast of all the possibilities. And even after they hear about it, they might be like, I'm not doing that.

Zach Kay (28:10)
There's

definitely a lot of people who just want to play shows and don't know where to start. I see that a lot in the Portland Music subreddit and Ruune, I've even seen you reply to a handful of those posts and be like, here are venues that will book anyone if you just get in touch with them. So saying like there's a lack of education or just not knowing about these venues, it feels like it rings true to me.

Jeff With Salad (28:21)
Yeah.

Ruune (28:30)
also I'll be the jackass to say that I think a lot of musicians are just lazy. Or maybe not lazy because I think lazy has a lot of connotations to it that kind of have weird intersections between like ableism and capitalism that like I don't particularly like but I will say maybe disengaged.

Jeff With Salad (28:37)
I-

Zach Kay (28:50)
Yeah.

Ruune (28:51)
like how many times do we play shows? And Jeff, you, you, you specifically asked me to come on a podcast with you and talk sh*t. So I hope you are prepared.

Jeff With Salad (28:59)
I was just about to say that.

Zach Kay (28:59)
Ha

Jeff With Salad (29:03)
I thought you've exercised so much restraint thus far. I love Ruune's hot takes. They are certainly a thrill for me. We talked about talking sh*t on this podcast and Ruune was like, no, I'm gonna be

Ruune (29:08)
You

I won't talk sh*t about like individual people because I want you two to still be able to play shows. Like I don't care. I like I don't care if I get blacklisted from any particular scene because I'm done. But like I know you two have hopes and dreams that you want to do. But the like what I was about to say was that how many times have we like played shows and there's like bands that have drummers and bassists who just like don't tell any of their friends about the show

Zach Kay (29:27)
Yeah.

Jeff With Salad (29:33)
You

Yeah

Ruune (29:50)
sometimes guitarists but it's more likely that a guitarist is like also a songwriter who's like really excited or whatever but like like whenever i hear about that happening someone just showing up and playing i'm i'm like aren't you excited like aren't you excited that this thing that you're a part of is happening and you like want to tell your friends and it's a different story if someone doesn't have any friends or they don't have a job or

all their friends are in their band or whatever, but like that's not everyone. And I just feel like, I feel like a lot of people are not lazy, but just kind of like going through the motions of like what the minimum of engagement of what being in a band can mean and what it can get you. And it's one of those things where like you get more out of it if you put more into it.

And I think that that kind of like, don't think musicians are lazy. Like if I'm gonna be like a snarky jerk about it, then I'll say that musicians are lazy. But if I go deeper into what that means when I say that, I think it's more that there's like a lack of engagement with like what being in a band could mean personally. That I think a lot of people are just kind of.

going with the flow of like kind of doing whatever. And even if that means that they are sad and like not accomplishing everything that they wish they were, even if it wasn't like a big industry goal or whatever, but just kind of like, I wish I could like play shows with my friends once a month, but they're not able to do that because like the engagement and effort is like not.

Zach Kay (31:29)
It's really interesting to hear you go in that direction because when I hear whoever first said it that say that musicians are lazy, what I think is not that it's minimal engagement, but it's more of a lack of perspective of how other people feel about their project and why other people would be interested in their project. And a lot of the time I see

post like, my new song's out now. You should listen to it because I made a song and that's great for your friends. But when you're trying to build an audience or book a show, similar example is people who post on Portland music and say like, Hey, my band would love to play some shows. If you need openers, call us. It's like, just because you are doing an art project.

doesn't mean that anyone else is going to be excited about that. And nobody will ever be as excited about that as you are about it. And so you have to kind of figure out like, why do people want to engage with the work that I am doing? And if you can't answer that for people who are, you want to listen to your music or people who you want to share a logistical burden of booking a show with you, cause it is a lot of work. Like you said, Jeff, it's hard.

then it's going to be difficult to make things happen if you can't figure out why other people should be involved.

Jeff With Salad (32:45)
Yeah, I think it's, I understand how, like, cause I'm very enthusiastic as Ruune said before, and yet I still feel self-conscious. Like it was hard for me initially to, like I have a lot of friends that I play pickleball with and that's like the main thing that we do. And at first it was hard for me to,

unless someone directly asked me about, like if it came up that I was in a band and they were like, when's your next show? It was hard for me. I didn't wanna make, you know, you don't wanna like make people feel obligated or, so I get that. I feel like it's, I don't know that it's like, the enthusiasm might be there and the excitement, but you're just.

maybe people just need to believe in themselves a little more and that the people around them care about what they're doing. when some of these pickleball friends came to a show and then they were talking about it and some other people were like, why didn't I know about it? You know? So I think it's important that people believe in themselves and that the people that they like to be around are interested in what you're doing. And...

you don't have to make the decision for them. They could decide not to come to the show, which so many people decide to anyway. So it's fine, that's fine.

Ruune (33:57)
I think you're kind of a bad example, Jeff, because like, because I've never seen you not bring like a shit ton of people out to shows. Like I've been I've been to so many Friends of Salad shows, including the first one. And like that was a really good night for Beer Bunker. And like, but like the point like even even if I took all of that knowledge out, you practiced.

Jeff With Salad (34:06)
hahahaha

Hahaha

Ruune (34:21)
Like you practice and you felt more comfortable doing it. And also it's not even about like, you know, it's not even about an individual person being responsible for getting 20 to 30 people in a room. It's about like a single person being willing to invite five of their friends. and like that's always, I've told Jeff this a million times, but like when I would book tours,

Jeff With Salad (34:24)
Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (34:43)
Yeah.

Ruune (34:50)
recently and go on them and I would talk to local bands who are supposed to play with us and bring people out I would say I don't care what your draw is I don't care what your audience is I want to know if you will motivate all of your bandmates to invite five friends each because if you have three bands on a bill like if you have three bands on a bill getting 75 people into a space shouldn't be like

that huge of a undertaking. It just takes getting each bandleader to get other members of their bands as invested in what's happening as they are. Or even less because I find that usually bandleaders are the ones who are doing the vast majority of work to get people out and having that democratization of effort.

kind of takes more of the burden off of the band leaders from kind of having to do everything. But I think the point is, that like, know, Jeff, you were talking about that you can understand because when you first started, it was hard for you to get some of your like pickleball friends out. But even beyond that, like you were still bringing people to a show and you were still, and I also am interested in kind of analyzing what we are saying when we say booking shows is.

Because like what makes booking shows hard?

Jeff With Salad (36:11)
the coordination between the venue and the other bands, you're the point person, if you're the one booking the ship.

Ruune (36:18)
and what makes that communication hard.

Zach Kay (36:21)
people not responding to your messages for several days at a time.

Jeff With Salad (36:23)
Ha

Ruune (36:26)
And what is that other than disengagement?

Jeff With Salad (36:29)
Dang. Checkmate. ⁓

Ruune (36:31)
Like, like it's like booking shows like

if you and that's the other thing is that like we don't have to play shows with everybody. And this is kind of the thing where like, you know, why when I was talking about booking at like smaller venues that are more community minded versus like bigger venues that are like cooler and have capital to them. Like

Like when you book with those big venues, you feel like you're doing it because you have to. Like you want to or you have to or like sometimes in that, not everybody, I can't speak for the entire world, but like somewhere in the desire of like I wanna play this show because it's a big show is like, I feel is a pull to capitalistic desire to like kind of like.

you know, play in front of a huge crowd, get the opportunities to play in front of more huge crowds, like, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. like playing and like working with those people is hard to do because you are at their mercy. And that's something that's difficult about booking is when you are being strung along by people who you're like, I need to just be as polite as I can in this email conversation, even though

they're taking a month to in between each response because I really want to play the show. But like if we co-create our own reality outside of capitalism, like we don't have to play with bands that are terrible at like communicating. can play like like we can play with people who are great at communicating. And like because like there's different like I've talked to people who play with

Jeff With Salad (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (37:54)
Yeah.

Ruune (38:17)
similar bands over the course of years and they're like, I'm playing with band XYZ and they like, just keep posting pancake emojis to everything I say and don't really, whatever. And I'm like, well, like, why are you still playing with them? Like, what, like, what does it matter? And so I think that it's like, we can make booking easier on ourselves if we surround ourselves with musicians that like, are willing to engage.

Zach Kay (38:33)
Yeah.

Ruune (38:44)
in the parts of playing music that we want to engage with as opposed to like bands that annoy the fuck out of us because they like can't get on the same page to make something happen.

Jeff With Salad (38:56)
And the same goes for you, working with venues that respond to timely manner as well, yeah.

Ruune (38:59)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (39:00)
Yeah,

Ruune (39:01)
Yeah.

Zach Kay (39:02)
yeah, it's interesting. Like the venue bit is really interesting and I don't necessarily agree that the desire to play in a big room is purely capitalistic and I would even disagree that anything a local level or a DIY level band is doing is capitalistic because there's no capital involved here, even if it's maybe more commercial than we would

was having a conversation with someone recently who is trying to book a show at a theater that they really like and they've had great experiences there and they want to play there. And the theater is kind of giving them a bit of a run around and it's, it's dragging on and they're like, well, man, I'm stressed because I need to lock this in. Like I have a hold at another venue that we've played before, but it's won't be as cool. And I want to have this really big experience.

and be able to deliver this really big experience for the people that come see us.

And what I said to them is, your band is so good, you will be able to deliver that experience in any room. And if you feel like you want to make this a special event and decorate that room, or rent some lights, do something a little above the normal for there, then you can do that. You're a brilliant, creative individual, so are many of the people in your band. The room doesn't make the show. You make the show. And you can do that anywhere.

And I think sometimes we forget that as artists that the room is literally just a room.

Ruune (40:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I've that's I agree with everything you just said I think I think the room is just a room. There's nothing There you don't need it you just you need and and decorating a room can be one of the like The best things ever you can like make it exactly what you want it to be

Zach Kay (40:48)
I want to dig into another element of what you just said, which was that we don't have to play with bands that drive us nuts. And I remember a conversation we had a few months ago where you were talking about what people kind of think of as like the punk rock ethos and how there's a level of this idea that being punk or being DIY means that like, you don't have to

Jeff With Salad (41:07)
you

Zach Kay (41:14)
care that much, you don't have to try that hard. And I know that drives you nuts.

Ruune (41:19)
I think that, yeah, I think that the idea, like I agree with punk rock ethos when it is breaking down the idea of professionalism. But I think that sometimes people confuse professionalism when really what we're talking about is kindness and courtesy

Zach Kay (41:40)
courtesy.

Ruune (41:41)
Like I don't think you have to try or care. I mean, I don't think you have to do anything. Like your band is your band and you can do whatever you want and Ruune doesn't rule the world. But like in my opinion, I don't think that bands have to make any attempt to accomplish anything along an industry standard. But I do think that it's just like,

Zach Kay (41:53)
What?

Ruune (42:10)
It's the same thing as when you're friends with someone and they just like leave you on read for two weeks after you sent them a really important text message about something. like, it goes beyond music business or music community and just is now just kind of a part of like, we are just people, like living in a world together. And if you don't wanna do the thing, then just say no. Like if you don't wanna contribute, then just say no, like it's fine.

Zach Kay (42:33)
Yeah.

Ruune (42:37)
But I think a lot of people just kind of, and that also I think is another kind of thing I don't like about the punk rock ethos is that it's kind of about saying yes to everything. Even when you don't have the capacity to like, to be contributive or present for the thing that you are saying yes to. And I think that's also where a lot of the, like I don't think every band that is being hard to book with is like a fucking jerk.

Zach Kay (43:05)
For sure.

Ruune (43:05)
But I think a lot of people, I see this a lot in queer music, where like queer millennial anything is about being everything to everybody all the time, because everybody is like looking for found family and wants to like be supportive of each other and et cetera. And in queer music, it's like, everybody's like, yeah, I can do this thing with you, cause we're community. Yeah, I can do this thing with you, cause we're community. Yeah, I can do this thing with you, cause we're community. But like the...

the average person only has so much energy and time to really like commit to a certain number of parking spots of activities. And there's always gonna be something that gets dropped through the cracks. And it's totally possible to like give people grace and like be compassionate that that happens sometimes and people make mistakes and it's okay. But I've noticed it's just like a continual.

It's like a continual thing that happens culturally over and over and over and over again. That I'm just like, maybe we should reconsider how we're living our lives.

Like I used to, there was this kid who ran sound, not ran sound, ran shows in New Jersey like, I wanna say like 15, 20 years ago or something. And they're a big deal now. But like they were like 14 to 17 during this time that I was like halfway adjacently connected to them. And anytime I ever went through New Jersey, people were like, you gotta get this kid to run your show.

And like, whenever I was going through New Jersey, this kid would get in touch and be like, I want to run your show. And I was like, I just cannot trust you to run my show because you will be running seven shows the same week. And I know that at the end of the day, my show is going to be the one that like gets that, that has the ball gets dropped on. ⁓ Yeah. One of those shows has to be the seventh priority. Like it's not.

Zach Kay (44:47)
Cheers.

One of those shows has to be the seventh priority.

Ruune (45:03)
Like you can't, you just, can't, unless you have massive amounts of both financial and social capital to fall back on, you just can't run seven shows in a row and have DIY shows and have them all be super excellent. And I've just run into that over and over again. And now it just, like when I'm booking with somebody, like I will look and see like, how often are you?

Jeff With Salad (45:08)
Okay.

Ruune (45:29)
How often are you doing these events? Like how often are you organizing? And like, it's not that I think those people are like doing anything wrong, it's just that I know that it won't work out well for me. And I think that was a big growth point for me was I think when I was younger, it was easier for me to be like, these people are douchebags and they're not taking it seriously and like whatever. And now I'm like, okay, they're just living their lives in the way that they're living their lives. But I get to choose. ⁓

Zach Kay (45:56)
Yeah.

Ruune (45:57)
how I engage with.

Zach Kay (45:59)
Yeah, and people can want different things, right? Like if your band wants to play a show every week, that's awesome. I'd love that for you. That's sometimes that's just the best thing is just playing out as much as you can. But if my band is trying to put together an event every now and again and spend all of our social capital on it and play like once every three months and get everyone we know to come, I would like to do that with other bands who are aligned in that goal. And that's

Ruune (46:17)
Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (46:26)
Again, it's not a value judgment, but there's a level of alignment there.

Jeff, I asked you on a similar topic if you had to describe your current era as a band in a few words, and this is about Friends with Salad, what would you say? And you said, on the verge of something.

Jeff With Salad (46:47)
I forgot. I forgot what I put. right. Yeah, I stand by that.

Zach Kay (46:48)
So it's...

Cool. Tell me more. Tell us more about that. There's two of us here.

Jeff With Salad (46:56)
yeah, I think it literally said on the verge of dot dot dot something, right? Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I don't, I,

Zach Kay (47:01)
Yes.

Jeff With Salad (47:05)
I've been really, I have felt really proud of Friends with Salad. We've been a band for over two years now. We just hit two years in the summer, maybe technically the late spring. And...

I don't know that we had a huge, we didn't like sit down and carve out a five year plan, you know, but I feel, I felt really proud about the growth that we've had as a band and what we've accomplished in year two versus year one and where things are maybe heading for year three. So like year one was starting the band, like.

doing the, you know, that's the easy one. It's just like, you have to have something start and happen. So that's the first year is like we played a show. I hadn't performed in like, in like three years in front of people, not on a screen. And I almost had a migraine that day for the, like the last time that I almost had a migraine, the last time I did have a migraine was in high school. And now, you know,

Zach Kay (47:42)
Ha

Jeff With Salad (48:07)
20, over 20 years later, 25 years later, that was what did it because I was so stressed out about the whole thing. So yeah, just starting something is a big deal and we were figuring out how to play with each other and how to write songs and just play shows, just start. It's so funny to me too to think about...

for that first show that Ruune helped us book, Ruune bailed us out because we had a show get canceled that was gonna be our first show at the last minute, literally like one week before that we had been planning months for. And I didn't know anyone, which just blows my mind now. Like I was reaching out to strangers who weren't following me on Instagram or maybe they were just because I was a fan and followed them and they were kind and followed me back. But like I was reaching out to these bands that had no idea who I was and I was like, hey, I just started this band.

and our first show got canceled and can we, do you have a show we could join or do you want to play with us if we can get something together? And it was, it's so bizarre to me now because we have such a strong community here in Portland now. So yeah, that was year one was like building community, getting used to being a band. And then year two was huge for us. We recorded an EP and released it.

I guess we released it technically a little outside of Year 2, but we recorded it anyway. And we opened for Save Ferris at Hawthorne Theatre, which was really, really huge for us. And we got to play MIGFest down in Salem, which was a sold out festival that I have been a fan of for years. And we've played a lot of just cool shows. This has been a great, not to say that Year 1 wasn't great, but Year 2 has just been like...

fantastic, lots of fun. So it's been a great year and I feel like there's momentum and I feel like there's growth. And there are some things that we have, like ideas of what might come in year three, like playing more out of town and out of state shows and maybe doing more recording. But we'd like to play some bigger shows like the Save Ferris show, but we don't have any booked yet.

And so yeah, feel like I couldn't have predicted year two during year one and I don't really know what's gonna happen this year, but I'm excited about it.

Zach Kay (50:11)
And you want to play those bigger shows for purely capitalist reasons,

Jeff With Salad (50:14)
We want the money, we want the salad. That's what we call it, we call it.

Ruune (50:16)
Okay, okay, okay. I just wanna

clarify. I just wanna clarify that even if there's no money involved, because when you're playing bigger shows, like, you only get to play those big shows if it's in front of lots of people. And in order to get the lots of people there, you need capitalism in order to do that.

in the big venues, not if you're at like speeds in front of like 400 people, but like if you're gonna play like Hawthorne Theater in front of like 400 people, like you're opening for a bigger band and that bigger band has made use of capitalism as a tool in order to, and here's the thing is that where I wanna clarify, I don't think that makes anyone a bad person.

Zach Kay (51:03)
Yeah, I mean I'm mostly razzing you.

Ruune (51:03)
But I think it's unavoidable

that we are using capitalism as a tool when we are seeking industry success.

Jeff With Salad (51:13)
Well, I mean, I, no, I agree with you 100 % and, uh, and we-

Ruune (51:16)
Yeah, but I don't think

anyone's a jerk for wanting it. ⁓

Zach Kay (51:19)
No, and I'm not saying that

certainly we are all operating in a capitalist system and we are using commerce. When I think of capitalism, I think of the capital class and I think of big investors and big oil companies and railroads and stuff where even the level of a venue like the Hawthorne Theater, it's not, the capital investor class is not involved in this.

Ruune (51:25)
Mm-hmm.

Zach Kay (51:41)
there is a level of wealth that is just not even in this equation.

Ruune (51:46)
I think that is a theory that is used by us to distance ourselves from capitalism while we're a part of it and using it, but I will agree to disagree and let Jeff continue.

Zach Kay (51:57)
Yeah, it's fine.

Jeff With Salad (51:59)
I would like to say that I'm right in the middle because we, even when you're playing the big venues as the local band, in my experience, you're still not making much money, especially considering what you, the time and money that you invest into being in a band. you know, we're not expecting, I mean, putting some money in the band fund is nice.

But we're not... And I know that all of the bookers in town, all the big bookers are gonna be listening to this and then they're gonna be like, we can get friends with Salad for cheap because they're not expecting a lot. I don't want to... We still, you know, we're gonna, as we grow, we're gonna hold our ground. But no, you know, our goal in this band is not to become famous and make a lot of money. That's not... We're not planning to go on tour or we're not...

Ruune (52:31)
Hahaha

Jeff With Salad (52:45)
planning to make a lot of money. However, that's not why we want to play these big venues. We want to play the big venues because it feels cool because capitalism tells us that we are successful if we play there and even if we're not making money and it does, there is that dopamine and it's like, we're successful because we're playing on, there's like, it's just fun to, it's fun to play your music for a bigger audience. That is certainly part of it. And to open for a band that you've been listening to since high school, just

Zach Kay (52:56)
Hell yeah.

Jeff With Salad (53:12)
It like makes your inner child sing and that's really cool too. But then there is there's the little the voice in the back that's like that's this is success and You know, yeah, I mean that's part of it and it feels it feels good even though we don't want it to

Ruune (53:26)
Yeah, that is what I'm referring to more than like the actual making of money. If anything, the way that smaller bands are contributing to capitalism in those situations is by making the bands above them more money. Because lots of these bands don't actually even have the draw that they used to have. They're like relying on local bands to be willing to give up all of their money and work on the basis of nostalgia in order to keep

Zach Kay (53:44)
That's true.

Ruune (53:53)
the bigger band's careers going. And like, to be fair, like, you know, when I was in New Here, I was running that band like a capitalist band. Like, I'll say it before anybody, I was in overdrive. And that's the thing is that I actually am kind of good at music business. it hurts me to do, which is why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

Jeff With Salad (54:04)
Yeah. Gregory was in overdrive.

Zach Kay (54:08)
Ha ha ha!

Ruune (54:19)
But like when I was in that band, everything that I did was literally about making the band money so that we could do the cool things that we wanted to do. It wasn't always like I liked community too and I liked playing cool songs and stuff like that. But like I knew that like, you know, tour costs money, recording costs money, like all this other stuff. Like, like I'll be the first to admit like I like I blocked Mackenzie from like playing with a bunch of touring bands over the years because I was like.

I don't wanna give them our money. Like, don't care. Like, these bands kinda suck and shouldn't even be on tour But to bring it back to Jeff's era of the Friends with Salad, I remember talking to you about this earlier about how well your band was doing. Like, and how like, not even how well, but how actualized.

Jeff With Salad (54:55)
we go.

Thank you.

Ruune (55:10)
Friends with Salad seems like you had played a show and you were like, like I'm really surprised that that show went that well. I was like, I'm not like I've consistently seen Friends with Salad put on some of the best performances in town. It's really like unique yet accessible music. The people in it are all really nice. Jeff is a man about town.

Zach Kay (55:13)
Hmm.

Ruune (55:32)
the band brings people out. I still can't believe that I went and saw that like Ska Fest that you played last week that had like a $20 ticket with a week in advance notice and Friends with Salad brought like 20, 25 people out. Like, and that's impressive for like a band that has only been around for two years. And on top of all of that, your songwriting and music is really good. So like, it makes sense. Like it's just like, like it's like you are like you are the professional wrestlers with the it fact.

Jeff With Salad (55:54)
my God, thank you. ⁓

Zach Kay (55:56)
Yeah

Ruune (56:02)
Like...

Jeff With Salad (56:04)
That's

so sweet. Thank you. ⁓

Zach Kay (56:06)
It's

all true. It's certainly all true. And I'll let you respond in a second, but I'm also going to say nice things about you. But I mean, certainly my band has been around for about the same amount of time. And our two bands have played four shows together. This December will be the fifth. And every single one has been a banger. And that's not because of

Jeff With Salad (56:11)
Hahaha!

Zach Kay (56:30)
But you put together

Jeff With Salad (56:30)
effort.

Zach Kay (56:31)
a lot of those and they were just super fun events. mean the show at the food carts that we played was entirely you and I never would have thought of putting together that event, but you did it. You built the community of the bands. You brought a lot of the people there. Same thing with that show in Kaiser that again, like not only a town I'd never heard of, but a venue I've never heard of and you brought us along and it was just great.

Music is excellent. We're going to listen to one of your songs in just a minute here. And it's one of my favorite Friends with Salad songs. We'll talk more about that later. But yeah, I am in no way surprised that your band is accomplishing the goals that you want your band to be accomplishing.

Jeff With Salad (57:07)
That's very sweet, thank you.

Zach Kay (57:09)
Yeah, so we're going to listen to a song off of the recent Friends With Salad EP. Jeff, do you want to give it a little intro?

Jeff With Salad (57:17)
Yeah, the song is called Friends Kiss, which is also, it's the title track of our EP. And it was also what I wanted the band to be called originally. ⁓

Zach Kay (57:31)
Ruune

is two thumbs downing this for those of you listening audio only.

Jeff With Salad (57:33)
Ruune is, ⁓

right, yeah, audio only. Ruune is imitating my bandmates. ⁓ But I said, you know, if it can't be the name of the band, I'm getting a song out of this. And yeah, and this is the song.

Zach Kay (57:54)
we go. We've got Friends Kiss by Friends with Salad off of the Friends Kiss EP coming at you.

It occurs to me that this is maybe the least ska Friends with Salad song.

Jeff With Salad (59:35)
Yes, that's correct. ⁓ In fact, there's only one ska song out of the four on the EP. ⁓ Yeah, that's the whole thing to talk about.

Zach Kay (59:41)
That's true.

Ruune (59:48)
Is it still going? ⁓ are we-

Zach Kay (59:50)
Yeah, it's still going.

Jeff With Salad (59:51)
But you're right, this

one doesn't even have horns on it and the other non-Ska songs have horns on

Zach Kay (59:55)
have

horns.

Ruune (59:57)
Are we allowed to talk? that's why I was pantomime.

Zach Kay (59:59)
Yeah, we can talk over this.

Ruune (1:00:04)
I thought we weren't. I was trying to entertain you too. But then I realized that my song was probably out of sync with yours. Yeah.

Jeff With Salad (1:00:07)
It was working. It was working.

Zach Kay (1:00:08)
That's really kind of you, yeah.

that actually made it more entertaining.

Jeff With Salad (1:00:17)
Yeah,

because I could tell where you were.

Ruune (1:00:22)
Someday you should bring me on to do like, pantomime go-go dancing.

I used to do that for a rapper in Portland.

Yeah, this is probably one of my favorites. yeah, we shouldn't talk because we got to talk on.

Jeff With Salad (1:00:44)
No, we

can. You're not even going to know when it ends.

Ruune (1:00:47)
No, I know,

Zach Kay (1:00:48)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:00:49)
but like we gotta save it for the pod.

Zach Kay (1:00:52)
This will be in the pod.

Ruune (1:00:54)
This will be in the pod. But the song is happening.

Jeff With Salad (1:00:56)
this right now. You're, you're,

Zach Kay (1:00:56)
This will be in the pod.

Jeff With Salad (1:00:59)
you're pantomiming.

Zach Kay (1:00:59)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:01:02)
What? But then how are how are listeners listening to the song?

Jeff With Salad (1:01:07)
Just like we are. Or, well, you're not, but Zach and I are.

Zach Kay (1:01:09)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:01:12)
so it's supposed to be like the Muppets who are like the two old Muppets in the balcony who are like commenting on everything? Is that what, right?

Jeff With Salad (1:01:22)
have to comment

on everything but they are you're looking at the old Muppets while the song plays.

Ruune (1:01:28)
Okay, well, so, well, this song rules.

Jeff With Salad (1:01:32)
Thank you, it just ended.

Zach Kay (1:01:36)
It did just end.

Ruune (1:01:36)
it just ended.

Okay.

Well that song rules.

Zach Kay (1:01:41)
Yeah, I love that song. That is my favorite Friends with Salad song. ⁓ I would love to hear more about it, the story behind it, how it became the title of your EP.

Jeff With Salad (1:01:41)
Thank you.

Aww. Thank you.

Yeah, well, were on a, all of Friends of Salad was on another podcast recently, Skagazine and we talked about I talked a little bit about how I've always thought it's funny that we're, like from day one ⁓ when we released our first demo, which was three songs, and only one of those songs had Ska on it, and it was just, two of those songs had,

ska parts, but neither of them were ska songs and they were small parts. One was just an intro and one was just a bridge. But from day one, people were calling us a ska band, and not even like ska punk, just like ska band. as someone who is a lifelong, almost ⁓ fan of ska, I have images that come to mind when I think of a ska band. ⁓

and music that comes to mind specifically. Probably most people have an image, but I have specific music that comes to mind. And actually, I don't think we fit either. Like, think most people will think of a ska band and you think of like 12 people with horns and, you know, we're just three people, no horns in the band. There are horns on the EP, thankfully, but ⁓ yeah, I just thought it was funny that people call this a ska band and we're just three people and we don't really like...

We were playing a lot of even at our first show we played a lot of ska, but we didn't release ska on our demo so like what people heard on the internet wasn't a lot of ska. And yeah, and this EP is not, ⁓ so Simon and I, Simon is our drummer, and Simon and I had a conversation about this where I was saying, you know, the EP only has one ska song and even that only has, it's a ska punk song. There's only a few sections that are, short sections that are ska, two half.

verses, kind of. And argued that for someone, from the perspective of someone who's not a Ska fanatic like myself, ⁓ they would listen to this record and be like, this is a Ska Punk record, because there's horns and there's upstrokes on one song. you know, I know what musical elements go into technically being

within the genre, but not everyone does and that's okay. ⁓ So yeah, so, but you're right. This is not a ska song at all and there's not even a horn to be found on it. Although if I had my way, we might change that. And this song, how it became the title of the EP. So,

This is a, on the Skagazine podcast, I told them there too that I wanted this to be the name of the band. And then they thought that maybe the song was an afterthought, but it wasn't. The concept of Friends Kiss was something that I had in mind ⁓ before, something that I have, this song is a personal song and drawn from personal experiences and.

Also, I do think that the concept of Friends Kiss, which can be taken a lot of different ways, is compelling. And that's why I wanted it to be the band name, because I think you see Friends Kiss and it's something that's compelling. And I think I was proven right by the meme that started to happen. I don't know if it's technically a meme, but after...

After we had, after I had written this song, I'm pretty sure it was after, ⁓ there was a trend ⁓ on social media, TikTok, Instagram, of people setting up a hidden camera, hidden, you know, whether it was real or not is to be debated, but people would set up a hidden camera and be like, today I kissed my best friend, because it's someone that they've had a crush on for a long time, but they're friends. And this was like a viral thing. Do you remember seeing this? No?

Zach Kay (1:05:38)
I'm not on that part of the internet.

Ruune (1:05:38)
I do.

Jeff With Salad (1:05:40)
Okay, good. I'm not yeah, Zach's Zach's Zach's getting different videos, but I this is what I'm getting

Ruune (1:05:45)
I do and I

think you dodged a bullet by not being associated with those videos.

Jeff With Salad (1:05:50)
No,

⁓ I agree. I agree. I don't want this song to be the theme song of those videos. And it's not even the not the same story. ⁓ I think that the fact that that became so huge, well, not huge enough to be in Zach's orbit, but the fact that it was huge enough to be in two thirds of our orbit ⁓ proves that the idea of Friends Kiss is interesting to people.

⁓ And so I that's why I wanted it to be the name of the band and if it wasn't gonna be the name of the band I figured it could be the name of a song and then it could be it could be the the content of a song and then it could also be why not name the EP that because what else are you gonna name it? ⁓

Zach Kay (1:06:35)
Sure. I mean, who doesn't

have a friend that they want to kiss?

Jeff With Salad (1:06:41)
I mean... ⁓

Zach Kay (1:06:42)
Okay, somebody's happily married. Somebody's

Ruune (1:06:43)
Runes raising their hand.

Zach Kay (1:06:47)
happily married.

Jeff With Salad (1:06:48)
Yeah, I mean, like I said, there's lots of ways people can interpret ⁓ Friends Kiss ⁓ in different ways. ⁓ Just the phrase. I think that the song, if you read the lyrics, ⁓ it may not be super clear what it's about, but I think you get an idea of what it's about and what it's not about. ⁓ But just seeing the words Friends Kiss next to each other, feel like people have different... ⁓

reactions to that and different associations with it. ⁓ So I thought, yeah, that's why I liked the idea of it being the name of the EP and the guys agreed. ⁓

Ruune (1:07:27)
great story. I said that in my asshole Boston accent, but like I actually think it's a great story and I was just breaking the silence. ⁓ yeah, when you, I like, you don't have to get into it because I feel like you very point and Lee talked around it. ⁓ but when you told me what the song was actually about as compared to like what I thought it was about, I was like, Jeff, you are the goddamn best songwriter in the whole.

Jeff With Salad (1:07:39)
Hahaha

Aww.

Ruune (1:07:57)
Like,

yeah, it's, a, this was probably one of my first favorite. My, my favorite Friends with Salad song is definitely Crayon, Crayola, Cray, Crayon. I'm a big Friends with Salad fan. ⁓ I don't know what it's called. My favorite song is probably Crayon, but I think my first favorite Friends with Salad song was definitely Friends Kiss.

Zach Kay (1:07:58)
Dang.

Jeff With Salad (1:08:08)
Crayon.

Zach Kay (1:08:09)
Pairing.

Yeah, my favorite song, I don't know what it's called.

Jeff With Salad (1:08:23)
Thank you. Friends Kiss was, I'm pretty sure Friends Kiss was the first song that I heard audience members singing lyrics to our original. Because we had had people sing along to covers, but ⁓ it was either this or Home Stretch. Both have a pretty repetitive chorus that you can pick up on pretty quickly. ⁓ But I think this was the first one and it was very exciting.

Ruune (1:08:50)
I love how the song starts super heavy. Like just thrash you're like, like there must be so many tattoos on these dudes. Like just like, just so many tattoos and they all say the word thrash. And then it's like, boop, boop, boop.

Zach Kay (1:08:55)
It's like a thrash intro almost.

Jeff With Salad (1:09:02)
You

Zach Kay (1:09:08)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:09:14)
And I'm singing about friendship and then it goes back into the super thrash song and I'm just like ⁓ god I love I love variety ⁓

Zach Kay (1:09:24)
especially then you see a picture of the band and it's like, it's not that at all.

Ruune (1:09:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff With Salad (1:09:30)
That actually leads me to another anecdote about this song, which is when I wrote it, ⁓ I had a very specific idea in mind. And we talked about writing songs for bands. I did write this. This was, ⁓ no, it wasn't one of the first, but it was a song that I wrote specifically with this project in mind, with Friends with Salad in mind. with the idea of this is the sound of Friends with Salad, but I was like, I wanna play this song with these people.

What I went into it, I actually didn't want to, I wasn't thinking about making it sound like our band. I wanted it to sound like a 90s grunge song, which is not a genre that I'm particularly fluent in. know it passively from what's famous, you know? And ⁓ I don't listen to a lot of that and I don't write that. although actually my very first songs are actually kind of grungy sounding, because all I could play were.

a few power chords and I didn't know what I was doing with singing yet and so I was just kinda, yeah. Anyway, so I wanted this to sound like that and I was really proud of myself and I loved this song as soon as I wrote it and I was so excited and I took it to practice with Simon and I was like, hey, I got this new song, maybe we could play around with it and I played it for him and he was like.

Yeah, cool. He was like, it kind of has like a 90s alternative grunge kind of feel. And I was like, thank you. I didn't even tell him. I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm going for. And he was like, yeah, it kind of sounds like Monkey Wrench ⁓ by the Foo Fighters. And I was like.

⁓ no. And the original version of this song, which is not what it sounds like now, as soon as he said that I was like, I totally ripped off Monkey Wrench. ⁓ And I didn't, I went back and listened to it, but it was close enough that it sounded like someone trying to rip off Monkey Wrench. And that wasn't gonna, I was so heartbroken. I was so mad at some.

Ruune (1:11:14)
Yeah.

Zach Kay (1:11:22)
Hahaha

Ruune (1:11:27)
You just have so

much

Jeff With Salad (1:11:29)
for someone with so much integrity, I was so mad at Simon actually, personally, for bursting that but in the end, ⁓ I went home and was like, god damn it, I have to rewrite, have to come up, this song can't get better, this is how it needs to be. And ⁓ then I was like, well, and Simon and I also, Simon,

⁓ and I like worked together on like a couple ideas in the in the room and then ⁓ I went home and Rewrote the parts that were some of it sounds the same but the parts that sounded too much like Monkey wrench I Rewrote and I and I like it much better now I went back and listened to the demo and I was like no This was not the way that song is supposed to be And I think it still has that has the vibe I was going for which you know

like you said thrash that's like perfect word makes me very happy because not something that I am used to writing but yeah it changed it changed the song completely and I think for the better so I was really pleased with that and in the end I thank Simon for not letting me continue with that song as it was

Zach Kay (1:12:35)
Not letting

you just blatantly rip off the Foo Fighters.

Jeff With Salad (1:12:38)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:12:39)
I mean who hasn't right?

Jeff With Salad (1:12:40)
Yeah ⁓

Ruune (1:12:42)
I think that Friends Kiss is a really special song for Friends with Salad for me because I think Friends with Salad is the only ⁓ band of dudes playing punk that could get away with playing the song without it pissing me off.

Jeff With Salad (1:12:56)
Wow.

Ruune (1:12:57)
like, like I don't that's meant as a compliment. ⁓

Jeff With Salad (1:13:02)
I take it that's one.

Ruune (1:13:04)
The title of this podcast episode should be, Jeff is Great.

Jeff With Salad (1:13:08)
⁓ stop it.

Zach Kay (1:13:09)
yeah, but Jeff is great and so is that song and I'm a big but I'm also a fan of yours, Ruune, and I've had the pleasure of hearing you play music a handful of times. And I've heard this song that we're about to listen to, ⁓ twice, maybe more

Would you like to tell us a little bit about I've Been Betrayed?

Ruune (1:13:29)
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I started writing I've Been Betrayed while I was working in nonprofit social work. And, or maybe adjacently to nonprofit social work, but that's far too long a story for this podcast, which is already going an hour and a half. And I just wrote the first line.

Jeff With Salad (1:13:30)
I didn't know what song it was gonna be, I was so excited.

Ruune (1:13:57)
and that just kind of as like a hee hee tongue in cheek kind of making fun of where we work kind of thing and sent it to my friend and then ⁓ when i got to play at the ⁓ at the nurses strike with you two

friend just happened to send me

just the lyrics to that first line, like right after I booked that show with you all. And I was like, I wonder if I can finish this in the next 10 hours before we play the thing. ⁓ And then I did and it was lots of fun. ⁓ And I really like that song is not like the first protest song.

that I've written. I've written a lot of protest songs over the course of my life. But I think over the past five years, I've written a lot of protest songs that I just wasn't playing out because they weren't fitting with the like sorcerous, feminine, divine acoustic sets that I was doing. And also because I didn't want like

towards the beginning of those five years, I was still trying to do like the like put my music online, Spotify, like Instagram, all that other stuff. And I didn't want my protest songs to be just kind of like, like a thing that somebody could click on and listen to and be like, yeah, but then not change anything about how they live their life or engage with the world. I wanted these songs to be like conversations with people who were in front of me.

writing this song kind of opened up a floodgate of kind of being like, and I also just hadn't played at a protest in like years. And I was like, I think that there is a place for me to play some of these songs. If I engage with them in a way that is outside of like trying to have them accomplish anything other than start a conversation with people who are right in front of me. ⁓ So yeah, it was really special. And also this recording is really special because Jeff, you are in it.

Jeff With Salad (1:16:10)
I'm in it? You can hear me.

Ruune (1:16:10)
yeah, this is so

yeah, this is the ⁓ I was I was I tried to include the i've been betrayed file from the nurses strike, but it was too shitty. so I did the star day live recording because that was like my first Gregory James McKillop show in probably like 10 years. ⁓ which was also a very special thing and I was such a special show just because like, ⁓ between you and Miriam from Garbage Witch kind of like

Jeff With Salad (1:16:30)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:16:39)
singing along to everything and picking up on stuff really quickly. It helped the rest of the crowd to also kind of like follow suit and it just created this wonderful like choir of Care Bears in the background that are just kind of like these like radical anti-fascist Care Bears are like singing background for all of my songs and I loved it. So that's why I chose it for this cast.

Jeff With Salad (1:17:02)
One of those Care Bears is my mother as well.

Zach Kay (1:17:03)
Anti-fascist care barriers.

Ruune (1:17:05)
Yeah, your mom was there!

Zach Kay (1:17:07)
Wow.

Anti-fascist Care Bears is such a good name for a band. ⁓ It's probably copyrighted. You probably get sued. anyway, here's I've Been Betrayed, ⁓ recorded at Star Day Tavern and performed by Gregory James McKillop

Jeff With Salad (1:17:16)
You

Zach Kay (1:18:40)
You

Jeff With Salad (1:18:57)
You don't know where it is in the song, do you, Ruune? Ruune can't hear the song.

Ruune (1:19:02)
It's just

the same five words. It's the same three words over and over again.

Jeff With Salad (1:20:00)
you

New Here's not the only band that can perform with puppets, so just saying.

Ruune (1:20:18)
It is that is ⁓ that is the I do want to make a music video.

Zach Kay (1:20:18)
Ha ha!

with puppets. Jeff is the only actor you need.

Ruune (1:20:24)
with that is,

Jeff With Salad (1:20:27)
Yeah

Ruune (1:20:27)
yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna get a bunch of my friends to come over and play in front of like a small set that people can stand behind and like have the puppets like, I'll be in betrayed. I kinda wanna do it before, it's not announced yet, but me and Jeff are playing the benefit for the healthcare for all.

Jeff With Salad (1:20:37)
Yeah, that's really cute.

Zach Kay (1:20:38)
That's super

fun.

Ruune (1:20:52)
non-profit at Holocene in February and I kind of want to see if I can make them because I know that like I'm very grateful to know that that song really resonated with a lot of the people in the nurses strike because some of my friends who have family in like in the nurses union were like do you who are like in music were like do you know Gregory who plays the song

And I mean mostly this is kind of it's very kind of like middle-aged mom activity that that's going on but It seemed to resonate a lot with people so I like recorded a quick little version to like send to people to like Spread around if they wanted it but I Kind of want to record like a music video with the puppets Muppets really

to see if I can give it to them to use as kind of like an advertising thing for that. ⁓ Like I don't, don't, yeah, but. ⁓

Zach Kay (1:21:47)
That's cool.

Jeff With Salad (1:21:49)
And you'll give

them a good discount on the licensing fee.

Ruune (1:21:54)
Yeah, yeah, I'll give them, I'll give them a great discount on the licensing fee. Yeah, yeah, no, all of my songs are Open CC or whatever, I don't know. Anyone, anyone can rip them off. I actually had a really interesting conversation. There's a, I'm gonna be, some of my music is gonna be in like a short film with somebody that I met through school.

Zach Kay (1:21:57)
Just the statutory license, no more.

Jeff With Salad (1:22:00)
Uh-uh.

Ruune (1:22:20)
and they were really, really concerned about like me. They were like, so you're not, you're not on anything. Like your music's not on anything. And I was like, no, it's not. And they were like, well, how, like, if we go viral with our, with our short film or we're like on festivals or something, which is not unlikely. Like how will people find your music? And I was like, you just.

go send them to the website, like it's fine. And they were like, but like, but like we're gonna be posting it on TikTok and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, if people wanna know who I am, they'll just, they'll click a couple links and get to me. And if they don't, I'm, I had to like really explain to this person that wider exposure is like not my focus at all. Like I'm not trying to build an audience.

Jeff With Salad (1:23:11)
If anything, you're trying people from your audience by performing earlier than your set time so that when the people who want to see you arrive, you are already done.

Zach Kay (1:23:14)
Yeah, lose the audience.

Ruune (1:23:18)
Jeff is...

Zach Kay (1:23:18)
Ha

Ruune (1:23:22)
Jeff is never gonna let me live it down that I

started my super drum voice at Five minutes early And and you know, I mean, you know what my counter to that is there is an hour in between doors open and show start and If you are showing up at show start then you could engage a bit more with the music that you like

Jeff With Salad (1:23:36)
Ha

Zach Kay (1:23:38)
You could have been there.

Jeff With Salad (1:23:43)
Hahaha

Zach Kay (1:23:45)
disengagement comes back

Jeff With Salad (1:23:46)
Hahaha

Zach Kay (1:23:47)
into the

chat.

Ruune (1:23:47)
Disengagement

comes back into the, I've been writing way too many synthesis at grad school and now it's just like, it's like seeping into my regular day to day conversation. But yeah, I really love, I love playing that song because it's so, it's funny that one out of every five crowds just can't catch the response sing along part.

Jeff With Salad (1:24:10)
Wow.

Ruune (1:24:10)
like they just like stumble over it real hard. It's hard to get them to do it like at the right But most people really, and it's just fun. It's just fun to sing.

Zach Kay (1:24:16)
Interesting.

Jeff With Salad (1:24:21)
I would like to gush about you and this song. I think this song is incredible. It's been so cool to see firsthand. Like this is a very personal song for you, but it's also so universal. it's like three words that for a crowd to yell is so cathartic. Like, and I've seen it and people are.

It feels so good to yell that because I feel like we're all going around trying to pretend like everything's fine, we're the dog in the burning house, and to yell have the opportunity to just yell, I've been betrayed over and over over again. It feels so good, like you, you,

You wanted to make a song that affected people, that isn't something they just listen to and then they move on. And I am convinced that people leave the show and carry that feeling with them when they leave of that catharsis. And clearly by the reaction you've gotten to it and needing to send out, even though you don't even release music, you have created a single.

for people to distribute because they need it. Yeah, think it's a brilliant song and also one of my favorite memories of the song is when we played Porchfest this summer ⁓ and Ruune jumped on at the last minute because a band was sick and couldn't make it. So Ruune was like, I have no bandmates, I'm here, I can play and played this song.

Ruune (1:25:42)
Ha!

Jeff With Salad (1:25:53)
And this little like five year old girl was yelling, I've been betrayed. And it was just, it was just perfect.

Zach Kay (1:26:01)
That's the light of all.

Ruune (1:26:02)
Yeah,

that was very, very cute. Yeah, is very... I have been receiving a lot of...

I don't know, when you sent, Zach, when you sent out that question that was like, what era are you in? I think I wrote down like, I either left it blank or wrote down creating my own reality. And I have been getting a lot of signs from the universe that like, I don't know, like I know that I talk a lot of shit and I know that like, I can sometimes talk very confidently about like the way that I

live my life musically, but like the decision to disconnect entirely from a lot of these systems by which we're supposed to like present our music through, whether it's like streaming or whatever, it's actually, it's kind of scary to like disconnect from those things and be like, is anybody going to care? Like is, is anyone going to listen to my music at all? Like, and I made, I made, I made the decision to get off Spotify.

two or three years ago, I think. But I made the decision to get off Instagram in April. And I was like, is anyone ever going to come to a show or listen to my songs again if I'm not spamming them constantly with a reminder that I exist? And lately I've been getting a lot of payoffs that it is possible to exist outside of those systems. it's really, like this isn't a Gregory song, but it's really.

amazing to me that I can go and play that car crash song that I play, Jeff, at different shows and people will sing along to it and it's not, you can't listen to it anywhere ⁓ and that's something I'm really proud of is that I was able to write a song that was either good enough or resonated with people enough that they will sing along to it even, and I'm kind of,

Jeff With Salad (1:27:43)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:27:57)
more, I don't know, Zach, you asked me who my favorite bandmate was and I don't have a favorite bandmate but I have some bandmates that I'm a little bit more proud of than other bandmates when they have those kind of benchmarks. And like, I think I'm more proud of Bentabia when Bentabia gets like engagement with music than Gregory is, than I am of Gregory because my Gregory songs are very...

Like I've been betrayed. It's like kind of easy to like catch on to those hooks and to understand what those songs are about. Like that Starday show, there are people singing along to all of those songs. And that was the first time I played most of those songs out. They're just very, they're written to be kind of protest standards that are easy to catch on to. And the thing is, is that like the more Gregory shows I play, the more Gregory shows I get offered.

because it's so accessible in that way. Bentabia doesn't get the same reaction because Bentabia music is more challenging, I think, and harder to sink into. Like you really have to like sit with it for a little bit and maybe even see it a second time or be a particular kind of person. So I think I'm, I get more proud of when my Bentabia songs get that kind of organic, natural.

Zach Kay (1:28:53)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:29:17)
disconnected from algorithm or AI or anything, reactions because like it is so different and like she is very kind of like, she's different than the other girls kind of thing. And I'm really grateful for it. And I even after I played with Sisterwife Sex Strike about a month ago.

And that was an amazing show. There was like 300 people there. See, like I talk shit about big shows, but I play them once in a while. But I'm not like super compelled by that anymore because like I wanna see people's faces like while I'm playing to them. And at the end of that show, I was kind of like, I mean, even before that show, I was trying to make these T-shirts.

that I have that say, hope I find the end of America because that's one of my songs. And I was trying to make the t-shirts before the big show, because I was like, these folk punk kids are gonna eat these shirts alive. Like they will sell like hotcakes. And I couldn't get it done because I'm in grad school and whatever. And I was kind of sad about it, but then I thought about it and I was like, you know, I don't know that I want these people who are like only engaging with my music because I'm opening for this bigger band.

to only buy a t-shirt of mine because I'm opening for this bigger band. And now that piece of art of mine is kind of a part of their fandom for this bigger band and they never engage with my music ever again. And that happens. Historically, my experience of opening for bigger bands is people like me a lot and then I never see them again. And I was like, you know, that feels like Spotify to me.

Jeff With Salad (1:30:43)
you

Ruune (1:30:56)
The idea of selling a t-shirt to someone who I never see at a show again, never engages with my music. That feels like Spotify. And that is kind of what most of that stuff is, but after that show, I got an email from someone. There was like a two page long email that was like, I've seen you play a couple of times and like, I know how hard it is to like disconnect as a creative person from social media. And I just wanted you to know that like, I appreciate your work.

And it really made me think about like, I disconnected from a lot of these systems for good in April. And it has felt like forever since then, hoping that like people will like want to go on the quest into the woods to like see the witch in the cabin at the edge of the woods. But then when I got that email, I was like, it's been like less than six months, and I'm receiving the engagement that like I want. It's not much, but it's like,

Jeff With Salad (1:31:34)
You

Ruune (1:31:49)
It doesn't need to be much because I'm not looking for like a globalized relationship with the world through my music. I'm looking for like small circuits and I'm looking for individual experiences. So

That is meant in relation to Jeff when you were talking about like people relating to my songs. Like I see it and it like makes me so happy because like I'm not playing the game anymore. And like people are still care. And I hope that that can be like exciting to other people who maybe play music that isn't as like pop accessible that like the...

the systems and the algorithm doesn't support that there are other ways of living as a musician, as a creative person. And it's been really fulfilling for me to experience that kind of feedback.

Jeff With Salad (1:32:37)
And despite leaving the industry, but despite leaving the industry while being good at it, you retain those skills in this universe that you're creating because Ruune more than anyone. And Zach, you and I have talked before about how we would love to see more venues.

craft a community and have a brand that you kind of know what to expect when you go and that you don't need to know the bands that are playing and you can just show up and know you're gonna get a good experience, know? Or you know you're gonna get an experience that you've come to expect from that place. And I feel like there's not a ton of places like that.

However, I know that if I go to a show that Ruune has put together, that it is going to be an incredible night. Like Ruune just has excellent taste and puts together these very beautiful events. And so you should go, it is worth going out of your way to featherandahalf.world, is that right? To featherandahalf.world to find out about when these things are happening because you don't want to miss them. And in fact,

Ruune (1:33:37)
Yeah, that's the website.

Jeff With Salad (1:33:43)
My mom was, I keep bringing up my mom, my mom was visiting this past week and she was at the Star Day Show and she had such a great time and she genuinely loved your set and was talking about it after. And so when she was coming out I was excited because you were playing and I was like, you can see Ruune again, you can see a different side of Ruune, because that was Gregory and this is Bentabia And she was excited about it. But then she also, she didn't remember what day it was.

And she was like, oh, I saw this thing was happening. There's these candlelight concert, this candlelight concert series. I don't know if you guys are familiar with it. I wasn't familiar with it, where they, I think it's a national thing where at different venues, they'll set up all of these candles and have like a classical or like a acoustic performance. And it's very beautiful. And my mom really wanted to experience that.

and hasn't had a chance on the East Coast and she thought, who's gonna be up for that but her son? And so she was like, I thought we could do this and there was one that, I think it was at, I don't remember, it doesn't matter. It was somewhere here in Portland and it was the same night as the Bentabia show and I was like, it's the same night as the Bentabia show and she was so excited about it she was, okay. And I was like, well, you know, we could go do that. You know, that's okay, like we could do that.

And she was like, no, no, let's go to Ruune's show. But I felt a little self-conce- And even though I knew, I knew it was gonna be such a great night and I knew she was gonna love it, I felt a little self-conscious. And I was like, oh, I felt a little bad because she wanted to try, she's been wanting to go to one of these for so long and it was the only night it was happening. And we went to Ruune's show and-

I don't know, I should not have doubted for a second because it was the most beautiful evening in the back room of a bookstore. Every performer was incredible. There were three performers and the space was, like you don't need candles necessarily. Like that space was just perfect. And my mom had like the best time. And...

Everyone there I think really had a had a wonderful time and I noticed this right away like Without fail if I go to a show that Ruune has has curated. I'm gonna love every performer Even if it's not a performer necessarily that I that I then follow so so they're having the experience that you talked about about opening for a ⁓ You know, I may not I may not follow that artist forever, but I like I I am so

Zach Kay (1:36:03)
You're being Spotify.

Ruune (1:36:05)
Yes.

Jeff With Salad (1:36:10)
invested in that performance while it's happening and it feels very special and very meaningful. And you do such a great job at putting those kinds of things together. And then on top of it, you put it together and then you kill it with your own performance. It's just, So Ruune is also awesome.

Ruune (1:36:29)
that is such a nice story. high compliment to beat out candlelit classical music. But that's also what I want my shows to do.

Jeff With Salad (1:36:36)
Hahaha.

Well,

I thought that as we were there, I was like, this is it. The candles are here. This is it. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, it was the vibe.

Ruune (1:36:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Kay (1:36:47)
This is insane.

Yeah.

Ruune (1:36:51)
Maybe that will be the name of the show series. The candles are here.

Jeff With Salad (1:36:55)
Yeah

Zach Kay (1:36:56)
I'll pile on a little and say that the first time I ever saw you play, Ruune, was before we had even really met. And it was your birthday party, which is a very funny two things to say in juxtaposition. But I heard about it because Bobby was playing, second half Walters were playing, and Bobby invited me. And I didn't really know what to expect. I knew who you were because you were active and still a new here at the time.

Ruune (1:37:05)
Mmm.

Zach Kay (1:37:18)
But that was such a memorable evening of performances. All of the acts were great. Your two friends from the East Coast were both incredible songwriters and performers. And I don't remember their names, even though I have one of the shirts. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That Eleanor Electra set was truly incredible. ⁓

Ruune (1:37:35)
It was the Michael character and ⁓ Eleanor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Zach Kay (1:37:44)
And then so was your set. was just like Jeff was saying, such a magical evening. And I still think about it often, even though it was a year and a half ago.

Ruune (1:37:53)
thank you. Yeah, it's been a really wonder. I mean, it was a big decision I made when I stepped away from New Here that I wanted to move in this direction of these kinds of shows because like New Here, and this is what I'm talking about when I say I don't judge people for like interacting with capi- because we all have to, it's more about just like harm reduction of like how much, but like when I was in, like when I'm in a rock band, I wanna rock out for a lot of people. Like I get it.

But like now that I'm trying to play small rooms to like 10 to 15 people, because like the people who play the best music and the people who bring the most people are not always the same acts. And a lot of times if you want to play shows that have the most people at them, you have to make decisions about playing with bands that you're not super thrilled about.

And that is one of the blessings of kind of like this reality that I'm creating for myself is that I don't care about playing for a lot of people. Like if there's seven people in the room, it's still a wonderful experience. And that means I can book whoever I want, regardless of how many people they can bring, because I know at the very least, like I can bring out enough friends to make it like enough people where it's like, okay, we're a nice little focused group that's listening.

and it's been a really wonderful joy. think I said this at the show, Jeff, but it's a wonderful joy to kind of like get to experience these amazing songwriters and also perform for them as a songwriter and kind of see each other in that place of lyricism. and, and, and, and it's also, I mean, that, that is a, I think even outside of my small minded anti-capitalist way of playing music or whatever.

Jeff With Salad (1:39:24)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:39:38)
like I think it's even a thing that a lot of bands who play could maybe integrate into their booking because like it's hard to get people to come and see your band over and over and over again. but if you create a, like, an environment of shows where the people that you're booking are always exciting, then like, and that was one of the reasons that new here had such like, has such big draw.

is because people weren't just excited to come and see us. Like they liked our band and our music, but they're always like, like the openers for New Here are always really, really good. And so it's not just like, come see my band again, come see my band again. It's like, come see this like great, this great lineup of stuff. And I think that that is just like...

Zach Kay (1:40:18)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:40:25)
Creating an event that is meant to be experienced from beginning to end and that you're proud of everyone you're playing with can do wonders for making a great environment to play music in.

Zach Kay (1:40:37)
Yeah, 100%. Which is part of why I'm so excited to play with both of you. ⁓ And part of why I'm always... Yeah, yeah, us and Girl Fiend ⁓ who are also great.

Ruune (1:40:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Star studded show. Mm hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Girlfriend rules. I'm excited. I'm excited to be on a bill with like also I feel like we haven't given enough props to combobox like combobox is so good. Like I I'm going to admit full up I didn't get combobox when I first like Jeff and

Zach Kay (1:41:00)
⁓

Jeff With Salad (1:41:02)
You

Ruune (1:41:10)
Bobby from Second Half Walters were always like singing the praises of combobox and I was like, I just don't get it. And then when I saw you play at the Nurses Strike, I was like, these are sick songs. And then when I saw you play live, was like, these are sick songs. And it's like, it's very like at the drive-in-ish. Like, I don't know if you know who they are, but they're like my favorite band, like in the world. And just kind of like...

Zach Kay (1:41:31)
Yeah

Ruune (1:41:35)
having something so experimental that's so dancey is like, Portland is full of boring music and like combobox is just like a shining comet in the middle of it that's just like so good.

Zach Kay (1:41:48)
That's an extremely flattering thing to say.

Jeff With Salad (1:41:51)
There's the fire

that I was looking for in this podcast. I agree 100 % and yeah, I mean, I was already singing combo boxes, praises, and maybe it helped that, first of all, I certainly have had experiences like Ruune's where I've heard something recorded and it just didn't click for me, and then I saw it live, and then the recordings.

Like even, you know, I became a huge fan of the recordings after. But for combobox, it probably helped that the first song I heard of yours was They Grow Up So Fast, which is your most ska song. ⁓ And I was like, whoa, okay. And then everything else, I don't know if I had heard a different song first, I don't know if I would have had the same reaction, but having that be my intro, my personal intro, I was already hooked. And then when we played together,

Zach Kay (1:42:24)
100 %

Jeff With Salad (1:42:42)
You you never know when someone reaches out to you out of the blue. Like, we didn't know each other. You had heard of us through Bobby, I think, and so reached out to play a show. And you never know, like, when a stranger reaches out to you, are they gonna be cool? Are you gonna like their band? Like, those are two different things that either one may be true or may not be true. And...

When, I was a fan of what I had heard online, but when I saw you guys play at Twilight that night, I mean instantly S-tier Portland band for me, or honestly like, yeah, S-tier Portland band and like maybe and beyond, I think it's crazy that you guys haven't been around that long and that you're playing at such a level where you should, like,

you should be playing those headlining shows that we were talking about before, where the bands are giving all their money to, all the opening bands are giving all their money to them. ⁓ But I mean, seriously, like, combobox should be a national touring act in the major venues of each city. But selfishly, I'm glad that you're not, because I get to come see you like five times a year.

Zach Kay (1:43:32)
Well, that's what we're in it for is that money is the opening bands is money

Ruune (1:43:39)
Yeah

Jeff With Salad (1:43:51)
And it's yeah, you guys are just like yeah the best

Zach Kay (1:43:57)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. I mean, similar experience to that show at Twilight. was so great to meet you and find out that, you're cool and also I like your band. And that's always the dream, ⁓ which you don't always get either of those things and you rarely get both of those things. So and, you know, here we are six shows together later. So.

Ruune (1:44:10)
Hahaha

Jeff With Salad (1:44:17)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:44:19)
Yeah.

Zach Kay (1:44:23)
That's definitely a mutual feeling. Yeah, well, that's the sixth. But yeah, yeah, super excited. And I'm sure there'll be more. So no doubt there.

Ruune (1:44:25)
and gonna play another one.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I know, ⁓

Jeff With Salad (1:44:30)
No.

Ruune (1:44:35)
I know we're running a bit over, but since we haven't, like, I just want to take a second to say that Girl Fiend is incredible. And like what, I feel like we're all like gassing each other up, but Girl Fiend is also on the show. And just like seeing Robin kind of like emerge from being just kind of like,

Zach Kay (1:44:37)
Yeah

Ruune (1:44:58)
the rhythm guitarist in Culture Cat or the bassist in Shelly to kind of being this like amazing songwriter in their own right and like with a rockin band and kind of like building this.

inspiring and I'm stoked for

Jeff With Salad (1:45:16)
I'm a huge fan and was so excited to get them on the bill. I was at their EP release and I'm just a legit fan. I said to Zach, we were talking about band goals at one point, and I said, I don't know what...

I don't know what our goals are. It's certainly not, you I think it's just to play a bunch of fun shows for me personally. Like I wanna have a good time with my friends. And then when I thought about it more, I told Zach that my goal is to play as many shows as possible that I would want to be at if I wasn't playing them also. And this is...

Zach Kay (1:45:55)
Yeah.

Jeff With Salad (1:45:56)
I would not miss this show for anything. So yeah, I think it's gonna be great.

Zach Kay (1:45:58)
haha

Yeah, I'm excited. I haven't seen Girl Fiend, so I'm behind the two of you, but I'm really looking forward to it. And not just because of all the nice things you just said, but...

Ruune (1:46:13)
Yeah, so if

you've listened for two hours and 13 minutes to this podcast, if you've listened this far, December 27th at Misdemeanor Meadows, you're gonna see Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Randy Savage duke it out after Super Drum Boy, Girl Fiend, combobox, and Friends with Salad.

Zach Kay (1:46:16)
It'll be less time than that. I'm gonna cut it down. I'm gonna cut it down.

Jeff With Salad (1:46:18)
You

Zach Kay (1:46:36)
That's right. Every word of that was true. Yeah, well, this has been lovely. I'm sure we could talk for another two hours, but we really have talked too long already. You're both such wonderful people and brilliant creatives. It's really been a pleasure to get to have this conversation. At this point, though, I will ask any final words, any parting goodbyes?

soliloquies, sonnets, other form poems that start with S.

Jeff With Salad (1:47:00)
Thank you so much for inviting us and yeah, it really means a lot to be a part of this new project of yours. I am always inspired by the stuff that you bring to the...

music scene into the community and your excitement and ideas. So it means a lot to be on here. And Friends with Salad just released our debut EP, which is Friends Kiss, and it's streaming everywhere. And we have CDs that you can, they're not for sale online right now, but you can message us on Instagram and we'll figure it out.

Ruune (1:47:35)
I have enjoyed being here. I have nothing to plug.

Jeff With Salad (1:47:40)
Hahaha!

Zach Kay (1:47:41)
Ha

Ruune (1:47:41)
If you live your life in a way that best aligns with yourself, and if that life aligns with the life that I am living in some way, we will meet at some point, perhaps at a show, and I will see you there, if you come on time.

Jeff With Salad (1:47:58)
Early, if you come early.

Zach Kay (1:47:58)
if you come on time

being a really key yeah you have to come engaged and on time ⁓ early engaged and early

Jeff With Salad (1:48:02)
no, early. Engaged and early, when doors

Ruune (1:48:05)
No no no, no

no, on time, doors open is not early.

Jeff With Salad (1:48:06)
open.

You're right, you're right, you're right.

Zach Kay (1:48:13)
Alright, well with that ripping sign off, I will say thank you to everyone who has listened. If you've made it so far, I'm gonna cut this down, but boy, I can't cut it that far. So yeah, thank you for being with us, and I hope to see you in real life, and I got nothing else better to say. I gotta get better at ending these things.

Jeff With Salad (1:48:29)
You you need a thing that you say like every time like that a thing.

Ruune (1:48:30)
Here the-

Zach Kay (1:48:34)
Yeah.

Ruune (1:48:34)
What's it called?

Bands on banding? Bands on banding we're gonna talk about Bands on banding we're gonna figure out How to be in a band How to be in a band How to be in a band

Zach Kay (1:48:37)
Bands on banding.